Discussion:
FrameMaker 7.2 Not Responding on New PC
(too old to reply)
Kevin Ryan
2016-03-01 14:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

After using my older version of FrameMaker on Windows 7 without issues on a Dell Latitude E6430 laptop for several years, my company just replaced my laptop with a new Latitude E6540, also having Windows 7. I've recently begun using the program on the new PC for the first time since initial setup of my fonts, Mif2go, and Character/Paragraph tools. FrameMaker seems to work normally except that 2-3 times a day I can pretty much rely on a "FrameMaker Not Responding" freeze-up hosing my work out of the blue.

Is anyone aware of any FrameMaker or Windows tweaks that might help me overcome this problem?

Thanks for any advice,

Kevin Ryan
Technical Writer
Systems & Software
Williston VT
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David Artman
2016-03-01 15:06:27 UTC
Permalink
Just spit-balling, but try these, in order, until you no longer see the
crash (this will take days to work through, if you want to make a valid
test at each stage):

* Ensure that you've installed all updates, in order.

* If you work off a network share, try working locally and syncing to
the share regularly (i.e., network dropouts or latency could be causing
FM to crash).

* Uninstall all fonts that you do not use (i.e., free up some system
resources).

* Configure FM to run in Windows XP Compatibility Mode. (Right-click
the main EXE, choose Properties, and change setting on Compatibility
tab; do the same for any/all shortcuts you use to launch FM.)

* Upgrade to FM8 (which I use regularly on Win 7 with no issues
whatsoever).

You might want to look into running some kind of system resources
monitor while you test these fix attempts, to perhaps 'catch' the
failure in the act (e.g., memory or CPU running out of control).

Wish I could tell you more... but diagnosing a system failure by email
is pretty challenging, in this day and age. :)

David

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Framers] FrameMaker 7.2 Not Responding on New PC
From: Kevin Ryan <[1]***@systemsandsoftware.net>
Date: Tue, March 01, 2016 9:29 am
After using my older version of FrameMaker on Windows 7 without issues
on a Dell Latitude E6430 laptop for several years, my company just
replaced my laptop with a new Latitude E6540, also having Windows 7.
I've recently begun using the program on the new PC for the first time
since initial setup of my fonts, Mif2go, and Character/Paragraph tools.
FrameMaker seems to work normally except that 2-3 times a day I can
pretty much rely on a "FrameMaker Not Responding" freeze-up hosing my
work out of the blue.
Is anyone aware of any FrameMaker or Windows tweaks that might help me
overcome this problem?
Thanks for any advice,
Kevin Ryan

References

1. mailto:***@systemsandsoftware.net
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t***@emhartglass.com
2016-03-01 15:27:32 UTC
Permalink
I had the same problem a couple of years ago with FM 7 (installed
originally on computer with XP. Our IT people tried several of these fixes
but none did more than slightly reduce the crash frequency. When we
upgraded to FM 12, the problem went away. I was later told that FM 7
didn't play well with Win 7 and above.

Besides eliminating the crashes, FM 12, I found had many more features
that I use frequently now and was actually easier to use.




Tom Beiswenger
Manager, Technical & Training Documentation, Project Manager - Inspection
Business
Emhart Glass Mfg. Inc.
1140 Sullivan St.
Elmira, NY 14901
PH: +607 735-4279
FX: +607 734-8278
Mobile: +607 769-4779
Email: ***@emhartglass.com



From: "David Artman" <***@davidartman.com>
To: "Kevin Ryan" <***@systemsandsoftware.net>,
"***@lists.frameusers.com" <***@lists.frameusers.com>
Date: 03/01/2016 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 7.2 Not Responding on New PC
Sent by: "Framers"
<framers-bounces+tom.beiswenger=***@lists.frameusers.com>



Just spit-balling, but try these, in order, until you no longer see the
crash (this will take days to work through, if you want to make a valid
test at each stage):

* Ensure that you've installed all updates, in order.

* If you work off a network share, try working locally and syncing to
the share regularly (i.e., network dropouts or latency could be causing
FM to crash).

* Uninstall all fonts that you do not use (i.e., free up some system
resources).

* Configure FM to run in Windows XP Compatibility Mode. (Right-click
the main EXE, choose Properties, and change setting on Compatibility
tab; do the same for any/all shortcuts you use to launch FM.)

* Upgrade to FM8 (which I use regularly on Win 7 with no issues
whatsoever).

You might want to look into running some kind of system resources
monitor while you test these fix attempts, to perhaps 'catch' the
failure in the act (e.g., memory or CPU running out of control).

Wish I could tell you more... but diagnosing a system failure by email
is pretty challenging, in this day and age. :)

David

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Framers] FrameMaker 7.2 Not Responding on New PC
From: Kevin Ryan <[1]***@systemsandsoftware.net>
Date: Tue, March 01, 2016 9:29 am
After using my older version of FrameMaker on Windows 7 without issues
on a Dell Latitude E6430 laptop for several years, my company just
replaced my laptop with a new Latitude E6540, also having Windows 7.
I've recently begun using the program on the new PC for the first time
since initial setup of my fonts, Mif2go, and Character/Paragraph tools.
FrameMaker seems to work normally except that 2-3 times a day I can
pretty much rely on a "FrameMaker Not Responding" freeze-up hosing my
work out of the blue.
Is anyone aware of any FrameMaker or Windows tweaks that might help me
overcome this problem?
Thanks for any advice,
Kevin Ryan

References

1. mailto:***@systemsandsoftware.net
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Robert Lauriston
2016-03-01 17:39:28 UTC
Permalink
Did they switch you from 32-bit to 64-bit Windows? The latter is much
less compatible with legacy software.

You might try XP Mode. It's a virtual machine running XP within Windows 7.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows7/install-and-use-windows-xp-mode-in-windows-7

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 6:29 AM, Kevin Ryan
Post by Kevin Ryan
Hi,
After using my older version of FrameMaker on Windows 7 without issues on a Dell Latitude E6430 laptop for several years, my company just replaced my laptop with a new Latitude E6540, also having Windows 7. I've recently begun using the program on the new PC for the first time since initial setup of my fonts, Mif2go, and Character/Paragraph tools. FrameMaker seems to work normally except that 2-3 times a day I can pretty much rely on a "FrameMaker Not Responding" freeze-up hosing my work out of the blue.
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Ragnar Hanås
2016-03-01 21:59:43 UTC
Permalink
I had some problems with FM 7.2 on Windows 7. It would crash every now and then, mostly when I highlighted text. After installing it on a new computer with Windows 64-bit 8.1 I have had no problems. I run it in standard mode, no compatibility.
Ragnar Hanas
Uddevalla Hospital
Sweden

-----Original Message-----
From: Framers [mailto:framers-bounces+ragnar.hanas=***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 18:39
To: Kevin Ryan <***@systemsandsoftware.net>; ***@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 7.2 Not Responding on New PC

Did they switch you from 32-bit to 64-bit Windows? The latter is much less compatible with legacy software.

You might try XP Mode. It's a virtual machine running XP within Windows 7.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows7/install-and-use-windows-xp-mode-in-windows-7
Post by Kevin Ryan
Hi,
After using my older version of FrameMaker on Windows 7 without issues on a Dell Latitude E6430 laptop for several years, my company just replaced my laptop with a new Latitude E6540, also having Windows 7. I've recently begun using the program on the new PC for the first time since initial setup of my fonts, Mif2go, and Character/Paragraph tools. FrameMaker seems to work normally except that 2-3 times a day I can pretty much rely on a "FrameMaker Not Responding" freeze-up hosing my work out of the blue.
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Kevin Ryan
2016-03-01 18:06:24 UTC
Permalink
Thanks to all for the tips.

Initially I thought David's first suggestion had it nailed because I had not installed the applicable "7.2 to p158" update from Adobe. My attempt to do so today met with a roadblock "GetDiskSpaceFailed" error. However, I don't think the lack of this update is the issue because my well-functioning old PC (also Windows 7) never had the update either (and it also gives the GetDiskSPaceFailed error today).

My bad new and good old PCs are both 64 bit Windows 7 machines.
At 16 GB my new PC has twice the memory of my old PC.

Funny how two similarly equipped PCs can perform differently. They are side by side as I transition old to new. If the problem persists, I will try the XP mode.

Thanks again.

Kevin Ryan
Technical Writer
Systems & Software
Williston VT

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Robert Lauriston
2016-03-01 19:03:11 UTC
Permalink
Is your old PC running 32-bit Windows? It should be 64-bit, if it has
8GB, but people make mistakes.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Kevin Ryan
Post by Kevin Ryan
Thanks to all for the tips.
Initially I thought David's first suggestion had it nailed because I had not installed the applicable "7.2 to p158" update from Adobe. My attempt to do so today met with a roadblock "GetDiskSpaceFailed" error. However, I don't think the lack of this update is the issue because my well-functioning old PC (also Windows 7) never had the update either (and it also gives the GetDiskSPaceFailed error today).
My bad new and good old PCs are both 64 bit Windows 7 machines.
At 16 GB my new PC has twice the memory of my old PC.
Funny how two similarly equipped PCs can perform differently. They are side by side as I transition old to new. If the problem persists, I will try the XP mode.
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Frank Stearns
2016-03-01 19:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Ryan
Thanks to all for the tips.
Here's one more: get the *free* Oracle VM VirtualBox emulator. There
are several different versions of hosts and emulations in the
Virtualbox family; we have the XP emulator running on Win7 Pro.

In the emulator we run several legacy applications, including FM7,
that either ran poorly or not at all under Win7. (FM7 would work for a
short while in Win7, but then would get so slow it had to be stopped
and restarted.)

After a year the emulation environment has so far proven flawless and
is fast enough to do real-time audio. You can mount file systems
outside the emulator; and you can copy and paste between apps inside
and outside of the emulator. The emulator can be selectively connected
to resources of the host system, such as USB ports. The only flaw is
that it does not support access to a firewire port.
Post by Kevin Ryan
persists, I will try the XP mode.
The internal emulations and "compatibilty modes" provided by the newer
Windows are very hit and miss. Some of the modes that Win7 suggests
after it "looks" at an old app are completely wrong; or, you sometimes
intentionally run the "wrong" emulation to get something to work. The
VM approach has proven so much more reliable.

Good luck with it. I remember the panic felt when our new Win7 box
refused to run our database program (with customer records going back
to the mid 1970s) and the horror at the thought of a six month project
to re-build that complex database. It was a bright and sunny day
indeed when that same old database came right up in the XP environment
provided by Virtualbox.

Frank

Frank Stearns Associates | makers of IXgen(tm) for FrameMaker(r)
*** IXGEN 7-10 for FrameMaker 10/11/12 IS HERE! ***
***@fsatools.com <mailto:***@fsatools.com>
1-435-275-8981 http://www.fsatools.com
NEW WEBSITE SOON!
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Robert Lauriston
2016-03-01 20:07:56 UTC
Permalink
Windows Virtual PC is a VM, Microsoft's answer to Oracle's VirtualBox.
XP Mode is a Virtual PC system image that includes XP and uses the
license from the Windows 7 host. It integrates with Windows 7 better
than VirtualBox does.

This has nothing to do with the various Windows 7 "compatibility
modes." You have to download and install Virtual PC and the XP Mode
add-on. You can also use Virtual PC to test legacy versions of MSIE.

VirtualBox is more work to achieve the same end and it requires an XP license.
... The internal emulations and "compatibilty modes" provided by the newer
Windows are very hit and miss. Some of the modes that Win7 suggests after it
"looks" at an old app are completely wrong; or, you sometimes
intentionally run the "wrong" emulation to get something to work. The VM
approach has proven so much more reliable.
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Jeff Coatsworth
2016-03-01 20:13:27 UTC
Permalink
Yes, but you need to have a sufficiently "high-powered" version of Win7 (Pro or Enterprise, I forgot now) to be able to get access to the Win VM.

-----Original Message-----
From: Framers [mailto:framers-bounces+jeff.coatsworth=***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: March-01-16 3:08 PM
To: ***@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 7.2 Not Responding on New PC

Windows Virtual PC is a VM, Microsoft's answer to Oracle's VirtualBox.
XP Mode is a Virtual PC system image that includes XP and uses the
license from the Windows 7 host. It integrates with Windows 7 better
than VirtualBox does.

This has nothing to do with the various Windows 7 "compatibility
modes." You have to download and install Virtual PC and the XP Mode
add-on. You can also use Virtual PC to test legacy versions of MSIE.

VirtualBox is more work to achieve the same end and it requires an XP license.
... The internal emulations and "compatibilty modes" provided by the newer
Windows are very hit and miss. Some of the modes that Win7 suggests after it
"looks" at an old app are completely wrong; or, you sometimes
intentionally run the "wrong" emulation to get something to work. The VM
approach has proven so much more reliable.
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Robert Lauriston
2016-03-01 20:22:20 UTC
Permalink
You can make Windows XP Mode work on Windows Home, but Dell Latitude =
Windows Pro / Enterprise / Ultimate.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Jeff Coatsworth
Post by Jeff Coatsworth
Yes, but you need to have a sufficiently "high-powered" version of Win7 (Pro or Enterprise, I forgot now) to be able to get access to the Win VM.
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Art Campbell
2016-03-01 20:36:59 UTC
Permalink
Seriously guys, running software released in 2000, 16 years ago on systems
with features and software functions that weren't even imagined?
This is an exercise for the computer museum, not a production environment.


Art Campbell
***@gmail.com
"... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and
a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
No disclaimers apply.
DoD 358

I support www.TheGrotonLine.com, hyperlocal news for Groton MA.
Post by Robert Lauriston
You can make Windows XP Mode work on Windows Home, but Dell Latitude =
Windows Pro / Enterprise / Ultimate.
On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Jeff Coatsworth
Post by Jeff Coatsworth
Yes, but you need to have a sufficiently "high-powered" version of Win7
(Pro or Enterprise, I forgot now) to be able to get access to the Win VM.
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Robert Lauriston
2016-03-01 20:48:57 UTC
Permalink
FrameMaker 7.2 was released in 2005. There's no reason to upgrade
something that works, and no reason to spend time and money on
upgrades to deal with Microsoft compatibility bugs you can solve for
free.

Switching from 7.2 to 13 (2015) could be a lot of work due to the
switch to Unicode in version 8. Plus there's the learning curve
introduced by the weird UI layered on in version 9. If you use
keyboard shortcuts instead of the mouse, the switch could be
particularly painful.
Post by Art Campbell
Seriously guys, running software released in 2000, 16 years ago on systems
with features and software functions that weren't even imagined?
This is an exercise for the computer museum, not a production environment.
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Steve Rickaby
2016-03-01 20:59:49 UTC
Permalink
At risk of getting flamed left, right and center, and with due respect for Art, I'd just point out that FrameMaker 7 for Mac still runs like a train on my 2003 MDD Mac dual PowerPC under Classic (the OS 9 emulator). I've long since upgraded, but certainly not because of FrameMaker. I've done macho (for me) things on it, including home-brewed structured docs.

You could probably pick up both FrameMaker 7 for Mac and a serviceable PowerPC machine (OS no later than Tiger, OS X 10.4) for peanuts on eBay.
--
Steve [sorry everyone...]
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Frank Stearns
2016-03-01 21:08:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Lauriston
FrameMaker 7.2 was released in 2005. There's no reason to upgrade
something that works, and no reason to spend time and money on
upgrades to deal with Microsoft compatibility bugs you can solve for
free.
Switching from 7.2 to 13 (2015) could be a lot of work due to the
switch to Unicode in version 8. Plus there's the learning curve
introduced by the weird UI layered on in version 9. If you use
keyboard shortcuts instead of the mouse, the switch could be
particularly painful.
Amen, Robert.

For us, FM7 has become something of what Word is for a lot of people
-- a utility word processor for day-to-day tasks. We don't roll out
the 777 to make a quick trip to the store when the reliable (and fully
amortized) old Chevy is available.

Oh, and even old FM7 is wayyy more reliable than Word. Plus, if the
task suddenly got more complex, without breaking stride FM7 could
sprout some little wings and possibly still get us there, likely
avoiding the big, expensive machine until it's really needed for
something it does better (if you'll allow me to torture the
transportation metaphor. <w>)

Frank

Frank Stearns Associates | makers of IXgen(tm) for FrameMaker(r)
*** IXGEN 7-10 for FrameMaker 10/11/12 IS HERE! ***
***@fsatools.com <mailto:***@fsatools.com>
1-435-275-8981 http://www.fsatools.com
NEW WEBSITE SOON!

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Scott Prentice
2016-03-01 21:18:02 UTC
Permalink
This is one of the many reasons that I use a Mac. I've got VMs (Fusion)
of various versions of Windows so I can run older software on the OS it
was intended to run on. I can upgrade my hardware and continue to keep
XP, Win7, etc., around for the software that runs best on each platform.
No painful migrations, no unexpected incompatibilities.

The problem comes when you expect old software to run on a new OS ..
it's just doomed from the start. Yes. This setup costs a bit more, but
in the long run it saves far more money (in time) than I spend in dollars.

Cheers,
...scott
Post by Robert Lauriston
FrameMaker 7.2 was released in 2005. There's no reason to upgrade
something that works, and no reason to spend time and money on
upgrades to deal with Microsoft compatibility bugs you can solve for
free.
Switching from 7.2 to 13 (2015) could be a lot of work due to the
switch to Unicode in version 8. Plus there's the learning curve
introduced by the weird UI layered on in version 9. If you use
keyboard shortcuts instead of the mouse, the switch could be
particularly painful.
Post by Art Campbell
Seriously guys, running software released in 2000, 16 years ago on systems
with features and software functions that weren't even imagined?
This is an exercise for the computer museum, not a production environment.
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Frank Stearns
2016-03-01 20:41:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Lauriston
Windows Virtual PC is a VM, Microsoft's answer to Oracle's VirtualBox.
XP Mode is a Virtual PC system image that includes XP and uses the
license from the Windows 7 host. It integrates with Windows 7 better
than VirtualBox does.
This has nothing to do with the various Windows 7 "compatibility
modes." You have to download and install Virtual PC and the XP Mode
add-on. You can also use Virtual PC to test legacy versions of MSIE.
VirtualBox is more work to achieve the same end and it requires an XP license.
It's true; there is a separate emulator from MS. Part of the
frustration (and fuel for continued mistrust of MS) was that one would
think MS's own compatibility modes for hosting its very own legacy
products would be enough, particularly after it examined the app and
chose the mode!

But you had better luck than we did. We started down the road of the
separate emulator from MS but then as the MS solution was examined in
detail, there appeared to be a number of "gotchas" and potential
"breakages" we weren't willing to risk. And, after 25+ years of
windows, we've learned the hard way to expect, uh, bumps in the road
with many of the solutions offered by MS. :)

For us, at the same detailed level of product examination, the Oracle
solution seemed cleaner and less likely to cause collateral damage or
problems. (Can't remember the specifics now, but there was one
particular show-stopper with the MS emulator that pushed us away.)

Indeed, VirtualBox does require an XP license but that was easy for
us; all of our XP install disks from all of our systems are stored in
our applications library. We just grabbed one at random and about 10
minutes later the Virtualbox was up and running, no fuss, no muss, no
weird problems, and the underlying Win7 install was unaffected.

As they say, your mileage may vary.

Frank

Frank Stearns Associates | makers of IXgen(tm) for FrameMaker(r)
*** IXGEN 7-10 for FrameMaker 10/11/12 IS HERE! ***
***@fsatools.com <mailto:***@fsatools.com>
1-435-275-8981 http://www.fsatools.com
NEW WEBSITE SOON!
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Caroline Tabach
2016-03-01 20:20:10 UTC
Permalink
I worked in a Virtual XP mode on my Windows 7 computer.

Maybe you could try that?


Caroline Tabach
Technical/Marcom Writer
Tel: +972-077-7745-042| ***@radcom.com | www.radcom.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Framers [mailto:framers-bounces+caroline=***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Ryan
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 16:29
To: ***@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] FrameMaker 7.2 Not Responding on New PC

Hi,

After using my older version of FrameMaker on Windows 7 without issues on a Dell Latitude E6430 laptop for several years, my company just replaced my laptop with a new Latitude E6540, also having Windows 7. I've recently begun using the program on the new PC for the first time since initial setup of my fonts, Mif2go, and Character/Paragraph tools. FrameMaker seems to work normally except that 2-3 times a day I can pretty much rely on a "FrameMaker Not Responding" freeze-up hosing my work out of the blue.

Is anyone aware of any FrameMaker or Windows tweaks that might help me overcome this problem?

Thanks for any advice,

Kevin Ryan
Technical Writer
Systems & Software
Williston VT
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Kevin Ryan
2016-03-02 15:42:31 UTC
Permalink
Thank you again for everyone's advice about preventing freeze-ups on my FrameMaker 7.2 / Windows 7 system. I feel well equipped to deal with this problem now. Gosh, who were those masked people?

Kevin Ryan
Technical Writer
Systems & Software, Inc.
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Kevin Ryan
2016-03-02 18:45:59 UTC
Permalink
Bingo. I had a freeze-up and David's "end DWM.exe process" method worked like a charm to save my files. Mega-thanks!

Kevin
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Kevin Ryan
2016-03-03 23:38:42 UTC
Permalink
Thanks again to those who've offered constructive assistance with my FrameMaker 7.2 "Not Responding" issue-and to Gillian for considerately alerting me of my backwardness and future unemployability.

I actually AM considering an upgrade to the current FrameMaker version, as it does perform better for a particular conversion I may need to run more frequently soon. But basically version 7.2 has been a work horse that has met our needs well. I have nothing but respect for it.

I'd like to suggest that this particular thread has run its course and should end. It seems to have become a vehicle for brow-beating. Time for other people's topics, I think!

Kevin Ryan
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David Artman
2016-03-04 18:02:38 UTC
Permalink
For those who Want To Know More:

[1]http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/what-is-dwmexe-and-why-
is-it-running/

You can safely kill it permanently, if you don't mind a Classic/Basic
Windows experience.

[FWIW, I often switched down to a Classic Desktop theme in the past
when taking screen shots of software, if only to keep the file sizes
down by reducing (or eliminating) gradients in window chrome (to get
more-efficient compression in PNG format).]

HTH;

David

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Framers] Framers Digest, Vol 120, Issue 2
From: Kevin Ryan <[2]***@systemsandsoftware.net>
Date: Wed, March 02, 2016 3:30 pm
To: "[3]***@lists.frameusers.com" <[4]***@lists.frameusers.com>
Some clarification, since David Millis's bingo suggestion came to me
off-list: Ending the DWM.exe process in Task Manager allowed me to
recover from my FrameMaker 7.2's "Not Responding" state here in the
Computer Museum. Here is David's bang-on advice:
From: David Millis [[5]mailto:***@DrakeSoftware.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 8:29 AM
To: Kevin Ryan <[6]***@systemsandsoftware.net>
Subject: FrameMaker 7.2 Not Responding on New PC
Hi Kevin.
I've had a similar setup and issue that you have for several years now.
The hanging problem seems to manifest itself when I hold the mouse down
for a while (undetermined amount of time but longer than just a click)
and dragging to either highlight an area of text or dragging the scroll
bar.
I've been able to go to the Task Manager, click the Processes tab, find
DWM.exe, and end task on that file. Sometimes I've had to end task on
it twice. 99.9% of the time, this works. Once I get the screen back, I
always follow immediately with a Save, but that's just me.
Hope this helps. My company has switched everyone except my department
to Windows 10. I have too many programs that would choke on a new OS if
I didn't upgrade them.
Good luck.
David Millis
Drake Software Education

References

1. http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/what-is-dwmexe-and-why-is-it-running
2. mailto:***@systemsandsoftware.net
3. mailto:***@lists.frameusers.com
4. mailto:***@lists.frameusers.com
5. mailto:***@DrakeSoftware.com
6. mailto:***@systemsandsoftware.net
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