Discussion:
table and figure captions
Deirdre Reagan
2008-06-11 14:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Hi all!

Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?

Thanks!

Deirdre
Jerilynne Knight
2008-06-11 14:25:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi Deirdre

Welcome back from class! I don't know the why (other than anchored Frames
don't have that function). And the only way a table automatically creates a
caption is if the "Add Title" option is turned on for a table.

So, my workaround?

I create a table format specifically to hold graphics. I know, kinda sounds
like taking a shower with your shoes on. However, since I've used FrameMaker
since 1992, this seems to be the best solution I've found. I use it whether
the format calls for captions or not.

There is a bit of set up to get it working correctly and, once set up, it
isn't too hard to maintain. Others may have a different approach and this
one was a great tool when I was converting 6500 pages of text from
WordPerfect to Frame AND the client decided midstream to change the
alignment of their graphics from left aligned to centered. I was able to
change the table format and everything was good...in just a few minutes.

Here is what I do:

Set up part 1: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphic
I use separate tags for many things, including anchored tables and anchored
graphics because it provides more control when converting to other formats,
such as help. In Frame 7.x, the smallest font size is 2 points, so I use
that to take up as little extra space as possible. Turning off the Fixed
option means the row height will expand and shrink as needed to fit the
graphic you insert. The reason for the "in column" in the tag name is
because some graphics span the width of the sidehead area and some don't. I
actually have another paragraph tag for those that span both areas.

1. Create a specific paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphics (mine is
called "AIC Anchored Images In Column")
2. Set the font size to 2 points
3. Set the line spacing to 2 points
4. Turn off the Fixed option
5. Save the tag with all the changes

Set up part 2: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored table


1. Create a specific paragraph tag to hold the anchored tables (mine is
called "ATC Anchored Tables In Column")
2. Set the font size to 2 points
3. Set the line spacing to 2 points
4. Turn off the Fixed option
5. Save the tag with all the changes

Set up part 3: Create a paragraph tag for your Table Caption

1. Create a paragraph tag to format your Table Caption (mine is called FC
Figure Caption)
2. Save all changes

Set up part 4: Create a table format to hold your graphics
Officially, Frame 7 (I don't know about 8), doesn't store the column widths
or paragraph tags in the Table Designer. However, it does remember

1. Insert a blank table with 1 row and 1 column
2. Apply the anchored graphics tag to the row (note: it will become
darned near unreadable since it is a 2 point font...if you have problems
seeing it, you can temporarily change the font size, then change it back)
3. Set the Title Position for your caption
4. Apply the figure caption tag for your figure caption
5. Highlight the entire table
6. Open the Table Designer
7. Name the table format (mine is either Images In Column or Images Full
Width, depending on what I'm using it for)
8. Save the table format

Use what you created
Now that the component formats are created, here is what you do when you're
ready to insert a figure/graphic. I always use a blank paragraph tag to
anchor tables and graphics, so that is how these instructions are written.
Tip; If you immediately import the file, you won't have to try to position
your cursor in that tiny little space left by the 2 point paragraph tag.


1. Position your cursor where the figure is to be inserted
2. Add a blank paragraph
3. Apply the anchored table tag (ATC Anchored Tables In Column in my
example)
4. Select Table > Insert table
5. Select the table format you created to hold figures (Column or Images
Full Width in my example)
6. Click Insert
7. Select File > Import > File
8. Import your graphic
9. Adjust dpi and other settings, if appropriate
10. Resize the graphic, if needed
11. Press esc m P to shrinkwrap the anchored frame around the graphic
12. Add the figure title to the title row

This is my processs...and hopefully it will help you a bit...

Hugs
Jerilynne
Post by Deirdre Reagan
Hi all!
Milan Davidovic
2008-06-11 14:32:14 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Jerilynne Knight
Post by Jerilynne Knight
I create a table format specifically to hold graphics.
Is this in structured or unstructured Frame? If the latter, can anyone
see a problem with doing it in the former?
--
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com
Peter Gold
2008-06-11 14:46:05 UTC
Permalink
One problem to be aware of when using single-cell tables with titles
for graphics: If you specify paragraphs in the table-title area for
generated TOCs, they will not be in the expected order because FM
collects them from the page after it collects standard paragraphs.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__________________
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
Paul Findon
2008-06-11 15:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Gold
One problem to be aware of when using single-cell tables with titles
for graphics: If you specify paragraphs in the table-title area for
generated TOCs, they will not be in the expected order because FM
collects them from the page after it collects standard paragraphs.
I remember that little gotcha from years ago, but hasn't it been
fixed? Just did a quick test with Mac FrameMaker 7.0 and it works OK.

One related gotcha, however, is that if you apply master pages to
specific paragraph tags by using the UnstructMasterPageMaps on the
reference pages, if those paras are in table cells, the master pages
don't get applied.

May be that's been fixed in FM 8?

Paul
Peter Gold
2008-06-11 15:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for checking, Paul. I don't pull out table titles for TOCs, so
I wasn't aware of the fix.
Post by Paul Findon
Post by Peter Gold
One problem to be aware of when using single-cell tables with titles
for graphics: If you specify paragraphs in the table-title area for
generated TOCs, they will not be in the expected order because FM
collects them from the page after it collects standard paragraphs.
I remember that little gotcha from years ago, but hasn't it been
fixed? Just did a quick test with Mac FrameMaker 7.0 and it works OK.
One related gotcha, however, is that if you apply master pages to
specific paragraph tags by using the UnstructMasterPageMaps on the
reference pages, if those paras are in table cells, the master pages
don't get applied.
Regards,

Peter
__________________
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
Lester C. Smalley
2008-06-11 15:19:20 UTC
Permalink
I'd amend this caution with the items in the TOC MAY not be in the
expected order: if there are multiple items being extracted from the
same page, FM will grab everything applicable from the standard flow
first then anything in the tables next.

On Wednesday, June 11, 2008 10:46, Peter Gold wrote:

| One problem to be aware of when using single-cell tables with titles
| for graphics: If you specify paragraphs in the table-title area for
| generated TOCs, they will not be in the expected order because FM
| collects them from the page after it collects standard paragraphs.
|
| HTH
|
| Regards,
|
| Peter
| __________________
| Peter Gold
| KnowHow ProServices

- Lester
-------------------------------------------------------
Lester C. Smalley Email: lsmalley AT infocon DOT com
Information Consultants, Inc. Phone: 302-239-2942 FAX: 302-239-1712
Yorklyn, DE 19736 Web: www.infocon.com
-------------------------------------------------------
Lester C. Smalley
2008-06-11 14:55:03 UTC
Permalink
The issue I see is does the resulting structure still validate?

If you have control over the DTD/Schema, you can resolve that problem by
modifying the structural definition; if not you will have to do some
very fancy translation on export (or import), or leave figures as
non-table objects.

On the whole, I very much like having figures in tables because of the
noted capabilities - automatic captioning, ability to trivially create a
ruling box, and placement flexibility except for in-line with other
text.

On Wednesday, June 11, 2008 10:32, Milan Davidovic wrote:

| On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Jerilynne Knight
<***@gmail.com>
| wrote:
|
| > I create a table format specifically to hold graphics.
|
| Is this in structured or unstructured Frame? If the latter, can anyone
| see a problem with doing it in the former?
|
| --
| Milan Davidovic
| http://altmilan.blogspot.com

- Lester
-------------------------------------------------------
Lester C. Smalley Email: lsmalley AT infocon DOT com
Information Consultants, Inc. Phone: 302-239-2942 FAX: 302-239-1712
Yorklyn, DE 19736 Web: www.infocon.com
-------------------------------------------------------
Stuart Rogers
2008-06-11 15:25:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerilynne Knight
Set up part 1: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphic
I use separate tags for many things, including anchored tables and anchored
graphics because it provides more control when converting to other formats,
such as help. In Frame 7.x, the smallest font size is 2 points, so I use
that to take up as little extra space as possible. ...
Jerilynne,

Very thorough instructions! But there's a way to avoid *any* extra
space for the container pgf: set its Space Below to a negative number,
and set the Table's Space Above to the same negative number. The table
will overlap the containing pgf exactly, without even a 2-pt gap.

The negative number can be any value as long as its absolute value is
larger than the font size of the containing pgf.

This method has the second advantage of leaving the containing pgf's
pilcrow symbol visible (a 2-pt pilcrow is not). You can set a font
colour for the containing pgf as well, to make the pilcrow stand out
even more -- very useful when the pgf is empty.

Best regards,
--
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers phoenix-geophysics com

Lucy: Charlie Brown, life is like a deck chair on a cruise ship.
Passengers open up these canvas deck chairs so they can sit in the sun.
Some people place their chairs facing the rear of the ship so they can
see where they've been. Other people face their chairs forward -- they
want to see where they're going. On the cruise ship of life, which way
is your deck chair facing?

Charlie Brown: "I've never been able to get one unfolded."

-- Charles Schulz
Jerilynne Knight
2008-06-11 15:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Stuart

Thanks for the tip! I use that approach for notes sitting "beside" the note
text and had never thought to use it for this purpose. I LOVE this list!

Blessings
Jerilynne


On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Stuart Rogers <
Post by Jerilynne Knight
Set up part 1: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphic
I use separate tags for many things, including anchored tables and anchored
graphics because it provides more control when converting to other formats,
such as help. In Frame 7.x, the smallest font size is 2 points, so I use
that to take up as little extra space as possible. ...
Deirdre Reagan
2008-06-11 15:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Thanks everyone for the responses. Jerilynne, thank you especially
for the very interesting use of tables for graphics! I will have to
try that.

ps when I wrote table caption I meant "Table1: This is the table
caption" I don't know if I'm using the correct terminology.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Jerilynne Knight
Post by Jerilynne Knight
Hi Deirdre
Welcome back from class! I don't know the why (other than anchored Frames
don't have that function). And the only way a table automatically creates a
caption is if the "Add Title" option is turned on for a table.
So, my workaround?
I create a table format specifically to hold graphics. I know, kinda sounds
like taking a shower with your shoes on. However, since I've used FrameMaker
since 1992, this seems to be the best solution I've found. I use it whether
the format calls for captions or not.
There is a bit of set up to get it working correctly and, once set up, it
isn't too hard to maintain. Others may have a different approach and this
one was a great tool when I was converting 6500 pages of text from
WordPerfect to Frame AND the client decided midstream to change the
alignment of their graphics from left aligned to centered. I was able to
change the table format and everything was good...in just a few minutes.
Set up part 1: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphic
I use separate tags for many things, including anchored tables and anchored
graphics because it provides more control when converting to other formats,
such as help. In Frame 7.x, the smallest font size is 2 points, so I use
that to take up as little extra space as possible. Turning off the Fixed
option means the row height will expand and shrink as needed to fit the
graphic you insert. The reason for the "in column" in the tag name is
because some graphics span the width of the sidehead area and some don't. I
actually have another paragraph tag for those that span both areas.
Create a specific paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphics (mine is
called "AIC Anchored Images In Column")
Set the font size to 2 points
Set the line spacing to 2 points
Turn off the Fixed option
Save the tag with all the changes
Set up part 2: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored table
Create a specific paragraph tag to hold the anchored tables (mine is called
"ATC Anchored Tables In Column")
Set the font size to 2 points
Set the line spacing to 2 points
Turn off the Fixed option
Save the tag with all the changes
Set up part 3: Create a paragraph tag for your Table Caption
Create a paragraph tag to format your Table Caption (mine is called FC
Figure Caption)
Save all changes
Set up part 4: Create a table format to hold your graphics
Officially, Frame 7 (I don't know about 8), doesn't store the column widths
or paragraph tags in the Table Designer. However, it does remember
Insert a blank table with 1 row and 1 column
Apply the anchored graphics tag to the row (note: it will become darned near
unreadable since it is a 2 point font...if you have problems seeing it, you
can temporarily change the font size, then change it back)
Set the Title Position for your caption
Apply the figure caption tag for your figure caption
Highlight the entire table
Open the Table Designer
Name the table format (mine is either Images In Column or Images Full Width,
depending on what I'm using it for)
Save the table format
Use what you created
Now that the component formats are created, here is what you do when you're
ready to insert a figure/graphic. I always use a blank paragraph tag to
anchor tables and graphics, so that is how these instructions are written.
Tip; If you immediately import the file, you won't have to try to position
your cursor in that tiny little space left by the 2 point paragraph tag.
Position your cursor where the figure is to be inserted
Add a blank paragraph
Apply the anchored table tag (ATC Anchored Tables In Column in my example)
Select Table > Insert table
Select the table format you created to hold figures (Column or Images Full
Width in my example)
Click Insert
Select File > Import > File
Import your graphic
Adjust dpi and other settings, if appropriate
Resize the graphic, if needed
Press esc m P to shrinkwrap the anchored frame around the graphic
Add the figure title to the title row
This is my processs...and hopefully it will help you a bit...
Hugs
Jerilynne
Post by Deirdre Reagan
Hi all!
Shuttleworth, Roger
2008-06-11 14:26:57 UTC
Permalink
Hello Deirdre

The presence of a table caption is determined by the table format as shown in the Table Designer. You can set it to "No title" if you wish.

Figure captions are just paragraphs that you may or may not want to insert.

If you are using structured FrameMaker, you can have a figure caption inserted automatically every time you insert a figure.

Hope this helps.

Roger

Roger Shuttleworth
Technical Publications
TVWorks Canada, Inc.
150 Dufferin Avenue
London, Ontario
N6A 5N6
Canada
Tel. 519 963-4368
www.tvworks.com

-----Original Message-----
From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Deirdre Reagan
Sent: June 11, 2008 10:04 AM
To: Frame Users
Subject: table and figure captions

Hi all!

Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?

Thanks!

Deirdre
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Shmuel Wolfson
2008-06-11 14:53:53 UTC
Permalink
For figures, you can have a paragraph (style such as Figure style) with
the next paragraph style defined as a Figure Caption style.


Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Post by Shuttleworth, Roger
Hello Deirdre
The presence of a table caption is determined by the table format as shown in the Table Designer. You can set it to "No title" if you wish.
Figure captions are just paragraphs that you may or may not want to insert.
If you are using structured FrameMaker, you can have a figure caption inserted automatically every time you insert a figure.
Hope this helps.
Roger
Roger Shuttleworth
Technical Publications
TVWorks Canada, Inc.
150 Dufferin Avenue
London, Ontario
N6A 5N6
Canada
Tel. 519 963-4368
www.tvworks.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: June 11, 2008 10:04 AM
To: Frame Users
Subject: table and figure captions
Hi all!
Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?
Thanks!
Deirdre
_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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Lief Erickson
2008-06-11 15:05:41 UTC
Permalink
I place my captions/titles above the image or table so that when the
users click a link (to the caption) in the online help or PDFs, the
image or table is still on the screen or page. If you link to captions
that are below images, users have to scroll up to see the image. It's a
minor hassle, but one that is easily avoided.

-Lief

-----Original Message-----
From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Shmuel
Wolfson
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 9:54 AM
To: Shuttleworth, Roger
Cc: Frame Users
Subject: Re: table and figure captions

For figures, you can have a paragraph (style such as Figure style) with
the next paragraph style defined as a Figure Caption style.


Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Post by Shuttleworth, Roger
Hello Deirdre
The presence of a table caption is determined by the table format as
shown in the Table Designer. You can set it to "No title" if you wish.
Post by Shuttleworth, Roger
Figure captions are just paragraphs that you may or may not want to insert.
If you are using structured FrameMaker, you can have a figure caption
inserted automatically every time you insert a figure.
Post by Shuttleworth, Roger
Hope this helps.
Roger
Roger Shuttleworth
Technical Publications
TVWorks Canada, Inc.
150 Dufferin Avenue
London, Ontario
N6A 5N6
Canada
Tel. 519 963-4368
www.tvworks.com
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Deirdre
Reagan
Post by Shuttleworth, Roger
Sent: June 11, 2008 10:04 AM
To: Frame Users
Subject: table and figure captions
Hi all!
Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?
Thanks!
Deirdre
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S***@aeris.net
2008-06-11 15:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shuttleworth, Roger
-----Original Message-----
I place my captions/titles above the image or table so that when the
users click a link (to the caption) in the online help or PDFs, the
image or table is still on the screen or page. If you link to captions
that are below images, users have to scroll up to see the image. It's a
minor hassle, but one that is easily avoided.
Yes! I often do the same for this reason too. Some of my older documents
are the other way (on the bottom), so when I get a chance and time to do
the changes, I update them this way.

Z
Fred Ridder
2008-06-11 14:32:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deirdre Reagan
Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?
Tables are well-defined encapsulated objects, and one of the properties
that is defined is an optional Title object. If you define a table format
to include a Title object, every table that you assign that format to
will have a title frame to contain your title string. But you can also
define a table format that does not have a Title.

Figures, on the other hand, are not uniquely defined objects. There are
at least three different methods that are commonly used to insert a
figure (an anchored frame in the text flow, an unanchored frame in a
fixed location on a page, or in an anchored frame in a table cell), so
there is no single place where a caption property could be defined to
apply in all cases.

But a potentially workable solution is to always encapsulate figures in
a single-cell table, since tables *do* have a defined Title object. This
does limit flexibility somewhat regarding horizontal positioning (tables
have their own logic of how and when to span columns and sidehead
areas), but also has a few small additional benefits, like making it
very easy to globally or individually add/remove border rulings around
figures, and providing facilities for encapsulating notes with the figure.

-FR
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Deirdre Reagan
2008-06-11 15:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Fred for explaining the "why." And thank you to Jerilynne
for explaning how to turn tables into graphic capsules!
Post by Fred Ridder
Post by Deirdre Reagan
Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?
Tables are well-defined encapsulated objects, and one of the properties
that is defined is an optional Title object. If you define a table format
to include a Title object, every table that you assign that format to
will have a title frame to contain your title string. But you can also
define a table format that does not have a Title.
Figures, on the other hand, are not uniquely defined objects. There are
at least three different methods that are commonly used to insert a
figure (an anchored frame in the text flow, an unanchored frame in a
fixed location on a page, or in an anchored frame in a table cell), so
there is no single place where a caption property could be defined to
apply in all cases.
But a potentially workable solution is to always encapsulate figures in
a single-cell table, since tables *do* have a defined Title object. This
does limit flexibility somewhat regarding horizontal positioning (tables
have their own logic of how and when to span columns and sidehead
areas), but also has a few small additional benefits, like making it
very easy to globally or individually add/remove border rulings around
figures, and providing facilities for encapsulating notes with the figure.
-FR
________________________________
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Windows Live™ Messenger. Learn How.
Jim Owens
2008-06-11 17:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the explanation, but automated figure numbering is not
impossible. You could define different Figure objects the same way you
now define different Table objects, and have the title turned off for
some figure objects and on for others, just as you can with tables.

When I migrated to Frame from Ventura many years ago, the lack of
automated figure titles bothered me. In Ventura, not only did you have
an automated figure title, you could position it top, bottom, left or
right. In Frame the "answer" was to use a table. You can make this work,
but it sure feels like a workaround.

The other practice in Frame, of placing a figure title as a separate
paragraph in the text flow and anchoring the figure to it, is a bit of a
workaround also. For paper output it removes any hope of controlling
page breaks in a predictable fashion. On the other hand, if you move the
figure title paragraph to an arbitrary spot to save your printed output
from awkward breaks, your online help output suffers. And if you want to
repurpose your text, the figure title paragraphs show up in the middle
of it. Then you add conditional text markers, I suppose.

Frame supports floating figures, and they work pretty well most of the
time. But we've moved away from floating figures for various reasons:
they require a bit of extra DTP effort to use, they supposedly don't
integrate well with online help output, and there's a theory that, for
useability, when you mention a figure it has to be right there, not on
the next page. (Personally, I don't find that floating figures interfere
with the useability of professionally laid out magazines like _American
Scientist_. On the contrary, they're very convenient.) And besides,
floating figures don't have automated figure numbering, so you have to
add a paragraph to the text flow anyway.

I for one am not convinced. Did we just give up? Should Frame support
automated figure numbers?
Post by Fred Ridder
Post by Deirdre Reagan
Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?
Tables are well-defined encapsulated objects, and one of the properties
that is defined is an optional Title object. If you define a table format
to include a Title object, every table that you assign that format to
will have a title frame to contain your title string. But you can also
define a table format that does not have a Title.
Figures, on the other hand, are not uniquely defined objects. There are
at least three different methods that are commonly used to insert a
figure (an anchored frame in the text flow, an unanchored frame in a
fixed location on a page, or in an anchored frame in a table cell), so
there is no single place where a caption property could be defined to
apply in all cases.
But a potentially workable solution is to always encapsulate figures in
a single-cell table, since tables *do* have a defined Title object. This
does limit flexibility somewhat regarding horizontal positioning (tables
have their own logic of how and when to span columns and sidehead
areas), but also has a few small additional benefits, like making it
very easy to globally or individually add/remove border rulings around
figures, and providing facilities for encapsulating notes with the figure.
-FR
_________________________________________________________________
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Peter Gold
2008-06-12 00:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Perhaps I'm missing something in your requirements, or I'm
misunderstanding your description, but another option is to create
text frames in anchored frames that contain the graphics, and tag the
caption paragraph with an autonumbered format that tracks the figure
numbers. Numbering in text frames in anchored frames in the same text
flow will track correctly with each other, and other paragraphs that
use the same autonumber series (identified by a prefix letter and
colon, such as S:) in the same text flow will also track correctly.
Extracted figure titles in TOCs will be in the correct order.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__________________
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KnowHow ProServices
Peter Kelly
2008-06-13 14:30:08 UTC
Permalink
Hello fine Framers,

For the life of me I can't figure out why my figure numbers are
restarting at every chapter but my table numbers are continuous. The
numbering begins at chapter 1, restarts at chapter 2, and then becomes
continuous at chapter 3. Chapter 1 leaves off at Figure 7 and the first
figure in chapter 3 begins at Figure 8...

The autonumber format for my figure caption is: F:Figure <n+>: \t
I am running FM 8, and yes I have the latest patcheroos.

All enlightenment is much appreciated,
Peter
Art Campbell
2008-06-13 20:49:22 UTC
Permalink
In the book file, when you highlight all chapters except the first
one, right-click and select Numbering, then pick the Paragraph tab, is
Continue Numbering.... the active choice?

If not, make it so, save (and save any files that are open), and
update the book.

Art
Post by Peter Kelly
Hello fine Framers,
For the life of me I can't figure out why my figure numbers are
restarting at every chapter but my table numbers are continuous. The
numbering begins at chapter 1, restarts at chapter 2, and then becomes
continuous at chapter 3. Chapter 1 leaves off at Figure 7 and the first
figure in chapter 3 begins at Figure 8...
The autonumber format for my figure caption is: F:Figure <n+>: \t
I am running FM 8, and yes I have the latest patcheroos.
All enlightenment is much appreciated,
Peter
_______________________________________________
--
Art Campbell ***@gmail.com
"... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
No disclaimers apply.
DoD 358
Fred Ridder
2008-06-15 16:14:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Art Campbell
In the book file, when you highlight all chapters except the first
one, right-click and select Numbering, then pick the Paragraph tab, is
Continue Numbering.... the active choice?
If not, make it so, save (and save any files that are open), and
update the book.
Peter's description indicated that his table numbers *were* continuing
across chapters, and that only way that can be true is if the book's
numbering properties are already seto to Continue.

His real question was why figure numbers and table numbers are behaving
differently, and that must be because they are implemented differently
in the chapter files.

If the goal is to have all numbers restart in each chapter, the solution
for Peter is simple: follow Art's procedure but set the Paragraph numbering
properties to Restart insted of Continue.

If the goal is to have all of the numbers be continuous, then Peter must
delve into his chapter files to find out what paragraph format is resetting
the numbering series used by the figure captions and remove that
interaction. If some numbering is continuous across chapters, any
resetting can only be the result of an explicit reset, such as a <=1>
building block in the first instance of a figure caption or a non-displaying
< =0> building block in some non-caption paragraph (e.g. a chapter title).

-FR
______________________



EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD
Mike Wickham
2008-06-11 15:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Deirdre,

I also use the "single-celled table with title" method for inserting
graphics with captions, but since you mentioned both figures and tables, I
want to add a suggestion to the good advice others have given.

Consider using a single numbering system for all graphics. It greatly
simplifies things. A reference to "see table 7" doesn't tell you where to
look for it. Table 7 might fall before Figure 1, for example. It's
unintuitive and confusing. If a cross-reference says to see Table 7 and that
table is several chapters away, it becomes very difficult to find. Having
all the graphics numbered in a single series makes life easier for the
reader. Figure 7 is always after Figure 6 and before Figure 8.

Here's a link to a short article about an IBM study that concluded it is
best to simply call everything a figure and number it in a single series:
http://www.techknowledgecorp.com/nonum.html.

Mike Wickham
Rick Quatro
2008-06-11 14:14:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Deidre,

Because Tables and Anchored Frames are two different animals. Here is a
solution that many have used over the years: put the figure inside an
anchored frame inside of a single-cell table.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing
585-659-8267
www.frameexpert.com
Post by Deirdre Reagan
Hi all!
Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?
Thanks!
Deirdre
_______________________________________________
Hedley Finger
2008-06-12 03:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deirdre Reagan
Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?
You have had your answer elsewhere on this list. But, seriously, why
isn't there a figure object that is similar to a one-celled table, which
is a pain to set up.

The new figure object would have:

@ an anchor for the entire object,
@ similar placement options to a table (top of page, bottom of page,
etc.)
@ be able to *float onto another page without dragging its anchor
para after it* (fix tables too)
@ contain an anchored frame, title, multi-para caption, and figure
footnotes (like a table)
@ a Figure Designer dialogue where you could set various options (no
title, title placement, borders and fill rulings and colours, etc.)
@ the ability to output to MIF in a previous format where the figure
components would be separated into separate objects (title para,
anchored frame, caption para(s), or into a new MIF format where it was
just a single object

While we are at it, for both figure and table you should be able to
specify the placement of the title and caption/footnotes relative to the
body: above, below, left side, right side, alternating left and right
sides depending on pagination, etc.

I have been proposing this to Frame Technologies and Adobe since c.
1798. We live in hope. Please feel free to forward this to your
favourite Adobe contact/forum/blog if you think, this is a good idea

Regards,
Hedley

--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street Camberwell VIC 3124 Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229 Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. "Hedley Finger" <***@handholding.com.au>
Fred Ridder
2008-06-12 05:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deirdre Reagan
Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?
You have had your answer elsewhere on this list. But, seriously, why
isn't there a figure object that is similar to a one-celled table, which
is a pain to set up.
I was thinking about this very idea after I posted my previous message
on this thread. I think it would be a great idea if we could treat anchored
frames as embedded objects with similar properties to tables. But I do
think it would want to be implemented for anchored frames generically
rather than just for figures since some documents use anchored frames
(or single-cell tables) for things other than illustrations--things like
spreadsheet fragments, code listings, and mathematical proofs. (Although
if you read the article by a former IBM-er that was cited earlier in this
thread you'd learn that we shoudl treat *all* non-text objects as a single
class rather than distinguishing tables vs. figures vs. equations, etc.)

But what I completely fail to see is why handling figures in single-celled
tables is such a "pain to set up". I've designed and used templates that
work both ways and I have to say that I don't have a clear preference.
Each has advantages and disadvantages. I do know from experience
that the single-cell table approach takes significantly more explaining
when training new template users, but it's not hard to set up in the
template, and only a little harder for writers to use than the paragraph-
based approach.

-FR



_________________________________________________________________
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Hedley Finger
2008-06-12 07:29:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Ridder
I think it would be a great idea if we could treat anchored
frames as embedded objects with similar properties to tables. But I do
think it would want to be implemented for anchored frames generically
rather than just for figures since some documents use anchored frames
(or single-cell tables) for things other than illustrations--things like
spreadsheet fragments, code listings, and mathematical proofs.
Of course, you wouldn't want the full folderol for an anchored frame
with Anchor Position: At Insertion Point that contains a bitmap of, say,
a button on a GUI. 8^)
Post by Fred Ridder
(Although
if you read the article by a former IBM-er that was cited earlier in this
thread you'd learn that we shoudl treat *all* non-text objects as a single
class rather than distinguishing tables vs. figures vs. equations, etc.)
Well, it might make sense for a programmer to do this behind the
scenes. But I don't really care how it is implemented, I just want a
nice clean interface for inserting figures and some method of creating
figure formats in a Figure Designer. It would be extremely annoying to
open An All-Purpose Object Designer to configure the type of object you
wanted and to create all-purpose object formats.
Post by Fred Ridder
But what I completely fail to see is why handling figures in
single-celled
tables is such a "pain to set up".
Yeah, it is so fun to (a) insert a single-celled table previously set up
as a format, (b) import a graphic file or create an anchored frame into
the single para in the cell, and (c) set the anchored frame to At
Insertion Point so you can get the spacing even all around, and then (d)
adjust the cell borders (or anchored frame border) to coincide of the
figure has a ruled box around it.

Wouldn't it be great if you could just select a Figure format when you
are in the file browser and the external graphic is imported into a
figure all ready to fill in the blanks?

I just looked up a textbook on printing technologies (for training press
operators, platemakers, etc.) and a doctoral dissertation. The figures
in those publications follow this model, pretty common in learned
publications:


+------------------------------------+
| |
| |
| |
| DIAGRAM HERE |
| |
| |
| |
+------------------------------------+

**Figure 2.34:** //Components of framistan// // Title for LOF

The framistan is a complex device which // Caption
contains 12,000 components in about
the volume of a matchbox.

KEY:
1 Discombobulator // Xref to fig label
2 Hierogriffin
...
12,000 Pettifogger
Credit: NASA (Saturn rocket)


How do you like them bananas in a table pretending to be a figure? I
prefer to put the figure title above, and the caption below, and I
usually do it with:

@ a figure title para (Keep With Next)

@ an anchor para with an anchored frame At Insertion Point (allows
you to use para properties to control space above/below, indentation),
Keep With Previous

@ a credit para with Keep With Previous

@ one or more caption paras, all Keep With Previous, inc. any keys to
labels in anchored frame

This arrangement keeps the figure "object" together. I also use the
AutoText plug-in from Silicon Prairie to paste in already set up figure
"formats". But, really, why isn't this stuff built in? [NOTE: Adobe
lurkers -- aren't the plethora of plug-ins for common tasks telling you
what functionality you should be incorporating?]

It would be nice if a table/figure title could appear beside a
table/figure, perhaps in the sidebar area of a page frame.

Regards,
Hedley

--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street Camberwell VIC 3124 Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229 Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. "Hedley Finger" <***@handholding.com.au>
Mike Wickham
2008-06-12 15:44:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hedley Finger
Yeah, it is so fun to (a) insert a single-celled table previously set up
as a format, (b) import a graphic file or create an anchored frame into
the single para in the cell, and (c) set the anchored frame to At
Insertion Point so you can get the spacing even all around, and then (d)
adjust the cell borders (or anchored frame border) to coincide of the
figure has a ruled box around it.
Wouldn't it be great if you could just select a Figure format when you
are in the file browser and the external graphic is imported into a
figure all ready to fill in the blanks?
I like that idea. In the meantime, the inexpensive AutoText plugin is even
more capable. You can create sample tables for holding your graphics with
accompanying text, captions, callouts, etc. Then you can pluck the whole
thing from a menu whenever you need it.

For example, AutoText can pop in a table that includes a heading and text
placeholder in the left column. On the right are graphic and caption
placeholders to illustrate the text. All the appropriate paragraph tags--
heading, body, anchor, caption-- are in place. Even the paragraph tag that
holds the anchored frame is predefined. Just click and type or click
and insert the graphic. (I actually reprogrammed a function key to import
graphics.) My table also contains a separate anchored frame, attached to
the caption paragraph, that is set to Outside Column, Side Closer to Page
Edge, and is rotated 90°. I use this to display the photographer's name next
to the photo's edge. A figure style probably wouldn't have that capability.

Mike Wickham
Carol J. Elkins
2008-09-09 20:29:16 UTC
Permalink
I am considering upgrading to Frame 8 primarily because of its Track
Changes feature. Can someone tell me if change bars can be made to
automatically display anywhere text has been added or struck out?

Also, I still use Win2000 as my production OS. Will Frame 8 behave well?

And finally, have most of the major bugs in Frame 8 been fixed? If
not, what are the ones that you feel are still the biggest problems?

Thanks for your always invaluable information!

Carol

******************************************
Carol J. Elkins---A Written Word LLC
Making Information Understandable
Phone: 719-948-3773
mailto:***@awrittenword.com
http://www.awrittenword.com
*******************************************
Sharon Burton
2008-09-09 20:32:21 UTC
Permalink
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Sharon Burton
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MadCap Software
Voice: 858-320-0387 x 222
Cell: 951-202-0813
Home office: 951-369-8590
***@madcapsoftware.com
IM: ***@yahoo.com
http://madcapsoftware.wordpress.com

Nidhi Bansal
2008-06-12 05:32:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi Deirdre,

I am not sure whether this information will help you out or not....

Table Captions comes automatically, since in the Table>table Designer>Title
Position or the Caption (as we r discussing) on the Basic tab it is set as
Above Table/below table. You can set how the Table caption should look
through the Paragraph designer. Make a Format TCaption (or any other mane)
and in the Numbering tab set T: Table<$Chapmun>.<n=1> or <n+>

For the Figure, in numbering tab of paragraph designer
F:Figure<$chapnum>.<n=1> or<n+>

Regards,
Nidhi

-----Original Message-----
From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Deirdre Reagan
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 7:34 PM
To: Frame Users
Subject: table and figure captions

Hi all!

Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?

Thanks!

Deirdre
_______________________________________________


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